Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Paul Albers Date: 1998/03/09 Robert Norris wrote: > > Good morning. > > I was thinking to myself the other day (a scary thing at the best of > times :), I wonder if we could bring the C64 into the 90's, so to speak, > by fitting the board and other associated gubbins in a PC tower case. > > Now don't get me wrong, I love the 64, but the old brown case gives me > the shits because, well, it's just not nice. I was thinking that the > board, drives, power supply, and my ARVI could be mounted inside a PC > case. > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It would be a fairly major job, > and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a > bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out. > > I intend to have a damn good go at it (using spare parts, not my good 64 > :) sometime in the next couple of months, but I'd like to hear from > anyone who's tried something similar. I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64. I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software wedges or anything like that. Is there some way to make an independent 'black box' that would connect a PC keyboard to the 64 this way? In theory it dosn't strike me as being a big deal, PC scancode in, C64 'scancode' out. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com) "First things first, but not necessarily in that order." -- Dr. Who --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: mairsil@xs4all.nl.SPAMSUXLIKEHELL (Mairsil) Date: 1998/03/10 pa@gis.shl.com wrote: > Robert Norris wrote: > > > > Good morning. > > > > I was thinking to myself the other day (a scary thing at the best of > > times :), I wonder if we could bring the C64 into the 90's, so to speak, > > by fitting the board and other associated gubbins in a PC tower case. > > > > Now don't get me wrong, I love the 64, but the old brown case gives me > > the shits because, well, it's just not nice. I was thinking that the > > board, drives, power supply, and my ARVI could be mounted inside a PC > > case. > > > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It would be a fairly major job, > > and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a > > bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out. > > > > I intend to have a damn good go at it (using spare parts, not my good 64 > > :) sometime in the next couple of months, but I'd like to hear from > > anyone who's tried something similar. > > I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big > question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64. > I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette > port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's > not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software > wedges or anything like that. > > Is there some way to make an independent 'black box' that > would connect a PC keyboard to the 64 this way? In theory > it dosn't strike me as being a big deal, PC scancode in, > C64 'scancode' out. One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume so from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid. Mairsil --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Robert Norris Date: 1998/03/10 > One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume s o > from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial > signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your > blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid. I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I know the basics of how the 64 keyboard works, and although I'd have to run a few tests, I don't think it would be too difficult to build something. (I'm like to think I'm handy with a soldering iron, so you never know :) Rob. --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Paul Albers Date: 1998/03/10 Robert Norris wrote: > > > One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume so > > from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial > > signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your > > blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid. > > I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the > PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I > know the basics of how the 64 keyboard works, and although I'd have to > run a few tests, I don't think it would be too difficult to build > something. (I'm like to think I'm handy with a soldering iron, so you > never know :) Here is a WWW site I just found with some good info on PC keyboards: http://www.pcwebopaedia.com/keyboard.htm Paul ------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com) "First things first, but not necessarily in that order." -- Dr. Who Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: mmontcha@orednet.org (Matthew Montchalin) Date: 1998/03/10 >I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the >PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I Steve Ciarcia's magazine, Circuit Cellar "Ink" (sic) had an article on the PC keyboards (laptop detachables), and the exact protocol used to transmit bytes to and from the computer. Look for a reprint of that wonderful magazine. -- At enim vela pendent liminibus grammaticarum scholarum, sed non illa magis honorem secreti quam tegimentum erroris significant. -Confessiones St. Aug. Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Rick Youngman Date: 1998/03/10 Paul Albers wrote: > > and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a > > bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out. > I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big > question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64. > I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette > port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's > not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software > wedges or anything like that. > The hardware is not compatiable... The C=64 keyboard is a mechanical switching matrix. (Email me if you want a program I wrote mapping the switching matrix of the keyboard) To make a remote keyboard for the C=64 is really quite easy, the circut board is totaly self contained and terminates a 24 pin header strip (or 26 pin...cant remeber 4 sure) on the mother board. Using a "standard" PC paralel cabel and connectors it is a piece of cake. For the keyboard housing a simple piece of plexiglass overlaid (glued) on an ol gutted AT keyboard can be used, that has been cut-out to the proper shape to hold the C=64 board (use the top half of the C=64 housing for a patern) good luck.... and bTw... the "keyboard-out" jack I have installed in my C=64 tower has also been used to "hard-wire" directly to a defunked combo organ keyboard which also used mechanical switches on its keyboard. The results is I can run programs like Kawasaki music maker and use a REAL musical keyboard instead of C=64 keys. My "keyboard out" jack is wired in parrallel so I have both the C=64 keys available and also the musical keys on the combo organ -- Reeko SysOp of The WasteLand BBs 520-754-4731 http://www.ctaz.com/~wlbbs C= ? http://www.ctaz.com/~wlbbs/thefile.zip Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Paul Albers Date: 1998/03/10 Rick Youngman wrote: > The hardware is not compatiable... The C=64 keyboard is a mechanical > switching matrix. (Email me if you want a program I wrote mapping the > switching matrix of the keyboard) Yes please, I was going to map it out myself and would be very happy to not have to do that. > To make a remote keyboard for the C=64 is really quite easy, the circut > board is totaly self contained and terminates a 24 pin header strip (or > 26 pin...cant remeber 4 sure) on the mother board. Using a "standard" > PC paralel cabel and connectors it is a piece of cake. For the > keyboard housing a simple piece of plexiglass overlaid (glued) on an ol > gutted AT keyboard can be used, that has been cut-out to the proper > shape to hold the C=64 board (use the top half of the C=64 housing for a > patern) If I was going to do that, I'de rather just use a top half of a C64 case with the keyboard as the extention (just make a new bottom for it). But what I *really* want is 4 cursor keys and 8 function keys (ie no shifting) with the remote keyboard. (any way to hack that into a C64 keyboard?) > and bTw... the "keyboard-out" jack I have installed in my C=64 tower has > also been used to "hard-wire" directly to a defunked combo organ > keyboard which also used mechanical switches on its keyboard. The Can't an old PC keyboard also be hardwired like that? I realize it would take some time an effort, but I think it would be worth it if there was no better way. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com) "First things first, but not necessarily in that order." -- Dr. Who --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: martijnb@mud.stack.nl (Martijn van Buul) Date: 1998/03/11 It occurred to me that Paul Albers wrote: > > Can't an old PC keyboard also be hardwired like that? I realize it > would > take some time an effort, but I think it would be worth it if there was > no better way. Theoretically, yes... Practically: No. A PC-keyboard is basicly a similiar matrix which is converted to scancodes in the actual keyboard itself. If you'd want to make a PC-keyboard to have the same matrix as a C64-one, that would mean that you'll have to change the PCB of the keyboard itself. (that is: make a new one!)(which could be used on only _one_ type of keyboard. A _slightly_ different model wouldn't work). Making a small circuitry that emulates a C64 keyboard from the scancodes it receives from the PC-keyboard, that'd be a far more better idea. Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B, depending on the keys pressed. A simple 68HC11 would do nicely. It has enough I/O ports, enough RAM, enough EEPROM to store the needed program in.... Easy! (PS: I'm told that XT-keyboards have a far more easier keyboard interface, since it's a one-way only interface (the keyboard only sends to the computer). An AT-keyboard sends as well as receives data from the computer (the LEDS are controlled that way). However, XT-keyboards are hard to obtain these days...) -- Martijn van Buul, martijnb@mud.stack.nl Tijntje@OuterSpace - 131.155.141.166 3333 Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard From: Nicolas Welte Date: 1998/03/11 Martijn van Buul wrote: > Making a small circuitry that emulates a C64 keyboard from the scancodes > it receives from the PC-keyboard, that'd be a far more better idea. Yes, I agree! > Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port > from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B, > depending on the keys pressed. But that would not be very compatible. I think there are some programs (especially games) which use a custom keyboard code which makes some effort to distinguish actual key presses from joystick moves. You could also use port A as input and port B as output, which would render your circuit inoperative. There are much better solutions, I think they are called analog matrix chips. They basically represent a switch matrix in a chip and are available as 8x8 or 8x12 matrix (among others), which would fit the c64 and c128. If you combine one of these with your microcontroller, then you have the final keyboard replacement. Of course you had to deal with all those remapping problems, just like emulators do. > A simple 68HC11 would do nicely. It has > enough I/O ports, enough RAM, enough EEPROM to store the needed program > in.... Easy! Hmm, I couldn't do it. If it's easy for you, then please do it :-) B > (the LEDS are controlled that way). However, XT-keyboards are hard to > obtain these days...) Some older AT keyboards have an XT/AT switch. Nicolas Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:32 +0000 From: Robert Norris Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard > Hello, > > Please check here for the C64 Tower and keyboard interfacing stuff: > > http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/cbm.html > > http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/c64tower/ > > bye, Thanks for this, I like what you've done with the AT keyboard hack, but I want a true hardware interface and not one that needs a software patch, that way the keyboard can be used for everything, not just stuff where the interrupts haven't been changed, etc. Good idea on the tower page btw Cheers Rob. btw I would have posted this but the newsserver has gone funny and insists that there is only 9 messages on comp.sys.cbm. hmm. --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:36:45 +0200 (EET) From: Ilker Ficicilar Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard Hello Robert, On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Robert Norris wrote: > > Please check here for the C64 Tower and keyboard interfacing stuff: > > > > http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/cbm.html > > Thanks for this, I like what you've done with the AT keyboard hack, > but I want a true hardware interface and not one that needs a Please check hardware and documents sections. There is a text file named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware solution and easier than an active interface. I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages. In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard. I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it looks like C128D keyboard. By the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification. > software patch, that way the keyboard can be used for everything, not > just stuff where the interrupts haven't been changed, etc. > It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there won't be any incompatabilities with the new software. anyway, > > Cheers > > Rob. > bye for now, > btw I would have posted this but the newsserver has gone funny and > insists that there is only 9 messages on comp.sys.cbm. hmm. > my newsserver behaves nonsense either. Thats why I use Dejanews and Reference.com > see you, Ilker Ficicilar filker@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr c068214@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:02:00 +0000 From: Robert Norris Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard Good afternoon. > Please check hardware and documents sections. There is a text file > named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware > solution and easier than an active interface. Well, there's a distinct possibilty that I'm completely blind, but I can't see it anywhere. :) > I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and > the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages. I still can't see the point in the AT keyboard. It's a clever idea to use the tape port, but I would have thought that having to wedge a driver into the OS would have made it useless for most tasks. > In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard. > I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it > looks like C128D keyboard. Bye the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to > your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification. So it's still a 64 keyboard in a modified box? Or not? Sorry, I don't follow (maybe I needed to read the docs :) > It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there > won't be any incompatabilities with the new software. What other OS? (Sorry, but I have this wierd ability to be completely ignorant about alot of things :) > my newsserver behaves nonsense either. Thats why I use Dejanews and > Reference.com Never liked Dejanews myself, mostly because it always seemed too slow. But that could have something to do with the connection here, which flies some days but other days is a slow as a... a really slow thing. Bye! Rob. --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:38:58 +0200 (EET) From: Ilker Ficicilar Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard Hello Rob, On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Robert Norris wrote: > Good afternoon. > Well, the Sun is just set here in Turkiye. > > named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware > > solution and easier than an active interface. > > I can't see it anywhere. :) > I put them in c64 tower page a couple of minutes ago. Whew, I feel I'm running on the net. > > I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and > > the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages. > > I still can't see the point in the AT keyboard. It's a clever idea to > use the tape port, but I would have thought that having to wedge a > driver into the OS would have made it useless for most tasks. > A couple of new programs will use AT-keyboard. No Kernal patches is needed for this programs. A few people asked me to use the AT-keyboard driver in their codes. And, if I can find time I'll try to make GEOS compatable with AT-Keyboards. By the way, there are autobooter cartdridges. They can be used for initial load of the keyboard driver routine. > > In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard. > > I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it > > looks like C128D keyboard. Bye the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to > > your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification. > > So it's still a 64 keyboard in a modified box? Or not? Sorry, I don't > follow (maybe I needed to read the docs :) > Yes, exactly the same. Did you ever see a C128D keyboard? C128D is C128 computer in slim case with a seperate keyboard. > > It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there > > won't be any incompatabilities with the new software. > > What other OS? (Sorry, but I have this wierd ability to be completely > ignorant about alot of things :) > LUnix already supports AT-Keyboard. And, in near future LUnix will have X-Windows like GUI. Btw, in case you don't know LUnix is a multitasking, unix-like OS for C64 by D. Dallmann. > > Bye! > > Rob. > see you, I'm waiting for your post concerning any trouble with the any information presented in C64 Tower Pages. ps: May I ask you something? I still have troubles with my newsservers. Would you like to announce the URL of C64 Tower page in comp.sys.cbm ? The URL is: http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/c64tower/ Now its time to take some sleep, it's 08:30 A.M. here. bye, Ilker Ficicilar filker@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr c068214@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr --- Re: C64 Tower - keyboard ======================== From: mmontcha@orednet.org (Matthew Montchalin) Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard Date: 11 Mar 1998 21:47:46 GMT >> Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port >> from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B, >> depending on the keys pressed. > >But that would not be very compatible. I think there are some programs >(especially games) which use a custom keyboard code which makes some And certain symbolic assemblers that distinguish between BACK ARROW M, CTRL M, and ESC M, not just SHIFT M. And speaking of which, there are always interesting little features like CTRL M * (holding down the CTRL key, the M key, and the ASTERISK key). I rather fancy programs which require you to hold the ESC and alpha keys down /simultaneously/, rather than sequentially. >effort to distinguish actual key presses from joystick moves. You could >also use port A as input and port B as output, which would render your >circuit inoperative. Well, just about anything would be better than a PC keyboard, no doubt. -- At enim vela pendent liminibus grammaticarum scholarum, sed non illa magis honorem secreti quam tegimentum erroris significant. -Confessiones St. Aug. ---