Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Paul Albers
Date: 1998/03/09
Robert Norris wrote:
>
> Good morning.
>
> I was thinking to myself the other day (a scary thing at the best of
> times :), I wonder if we could bring the C64 into the 90's, so to speak,
> by fitting the board and other associated gubbins in a PC tower case.
>
> Now don't get me wrong, I love the 64, but the old brown case gives me
> the shits because, well, it's just not nice. I was thinking that the
> board, drives, power supply, and my ARVI could be mounted inside a PC
> case.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It would be a fairly major job,
> and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a
> bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out.
>
> I intend to have a damn good go at it (using spare parts, not my good 64
> :) sometime in the next couple of months, but I'd like to hear from
> anyone who's tried something similar.
I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big
question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64.
I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette
port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's
not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software
wedges or anything like that.
Is there some way to make an independent 'black box' that
would connect a PC keyboard to the 64 this way? In theory
it dosn't strike me as being a big deal, PC scancode in,
C64 'scancode' out.
Paul
-------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com)
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order."
-- Dr. Who
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: mairsil@xs4all.nl.SPAMSUXLIKEHELL (Mairsil)
Date: 1998/03/10
pa@gis.shl.com wrote:
> Robert Norris wrote:
> >
> > Good morning.
> >
> > I was thinking to myself the other day (a scary thing at the best of
> > times :), I wonder if we could bring the C64 into the 90's, so to speak,
> > by fitting the board and other associated gubbins in a PC tower case.
> >
> > Now don't get me wrong, I love the 64, but the old brown case gives me
> > the shits because, well, it's just not nice. I was thinking that the
> > board, drives, power supply, and my ARVI could be mounted inside a PC
> > case.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It would be a fairly major job,
> > and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a
> > bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out.
> >
> > I intend to have a damn good go at it (using spare parts, not my good 64
> > :) sometime in the next couple of months, but I'd like to hear from
> > anyone who's tried something similar.
>
> I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big
> question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64.
> I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette
> port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's
> not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software
> wedges or anything like that.
>
> Is there some way to make an independent 'black box' that
> would connect a PC keyboard to the 64 this way? In theory
> it dosn't strike me as being a big deal, PC scancode in,
> C64 'scancode' out.
One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume so
from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial
signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your
blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid.
Mairsil
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Robert Norris
Date: 1998/03/10
> One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume s
o
> from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial
> signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your
> blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid.
I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the
PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I
know the basics of how the 64 keyboard works, and although I'd have to
run a few tests, I don't think it would be too difficult to build
something. (I'm like to think I'm handy with a soldering iron, so you
never know :)
Rob.
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Paul Albers
Date: 1998/03/10
Robert Norris wrote:
>
> > One problem is that the C64 uses a paralel interface (or at least, I assume
so
> > from the 20-pin connector), while the (5-pin) pc keyboard uses a serial
> > signal. This means you'll have to build some digital hardware in your
> > blackbox. Not that easy, I'm afraid.
>
> I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the
> PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I
> know the basics of how the 64 keyboard works, and although I'd have to
> run a few tests, I don't think it would be too difficult to build
> something. (I'm like to think I'm handy with a soldering iron, so you
> never know :)
Here is a WWW site I just found with some good info on PC keyboards:
http://www.pcwebopaedia.com/keyboard.htm
Paul
-------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com)
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order."
-- Dr. Who
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: mmontcha@orednet.org (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: 1998/03/10
>I've been thinking a bit about this, too. If anyone can tell me how the
>PC keyboard sends the keypresses, it probably wouldn't be too hard. I
Steve Ciarcia's magazine, Circuit Cellar "Ink" (sic) had an article on the
PC keyboards (laptop detachables), and the exact protocol used to transmit
bytes to and from the computer. Look for a reprint of that wonderful
magazine.
--
At enim vela pendent liminibus grammaticarum scholarum, sed non illa magis
honorem secreti quam tegimentum erroris significant. -Confessiones St. Aug.
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Rick Youngman
Date: 1998/03/10
Paul Albers wrote:
> > and something would have to be worked out with the keyboard, but with a
> > bit of time and effort something could probably be worked out.
> I've been tossing this idea around for some time. My big
> question is about attaching a PC style keyboard to the C64.
> I've seen plans that just attach the keyboard to the cassette
> port and uses software to translate the key presses, but that's
> not what I want. I want full harware emulation, no software
> wedges or anything like that.
>
The hardware is not compatiable... The C=64 keyboard is a mechanical
switching matrix. (Email me if you want a program I wrote mapping the
switching matrix of the keyboard)
To make a remote keyboard for the C=64 is really quite easy, the circut
board is totaly self contained and terminates a 24 pin header strip (or
26 pin...cant remeber 4 sure) on the mother board. Using a "standard"
PC paralel cabel and connectors it is a piece of cake. For the
keyboard housing a simple piece of plexiglass overlaid (glued) on an ol
gutted AT keyboard can be used, that has been cut-out to the proper
shape to hold the C=64 board (use the top half of the C=64 housing for a
patern)
good luck....
and bTw... the "keyboard-out" jack I have installed in my C=64 tower has
also been used to "hard-wire" directly to a defunked combo organ
keyboard which also used mechanical switches on its keyboard. The
results is I can run programs like Kawasaki music maker and use a REAL
musical keyboard instead of C=64 keys. My "keyboard out" jack is wired
in parrallel so I have both the C=64 keys available and also the musical
keys on the combo organ
--
Reeko
SysOp of The WasteLand BBs
520-754-4731
http://www.ctaz.com/~wlbbs
C= ? http://www.ctaz.com/~wlbbs/thefile.zip
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Paul Albers
Date: 1998/03/10
Rick Youngman wrote:
> The hardware is not compatiable... The C=64 keyboard is a mechanical
> switching matrix. (Email me if you want a program I wrote mapping the
> switching matrix of the keyboard)
Yes please, I was going to map it out myself and would be very happy to
not have to do that.
> To make a remote keyboard for the C=64 is really quite easy, the circut
> board is totaly self contained and terminates a 24 pin header strip (or
> 26 pin...cant remeber 4 sure) on the mother board. Using a "standard"
> PC paralel cabel and connectors it is a piece of cake. For the
> keyboard housing a simple piece of plexiglass overlaid (glued) on an ol
> gutted AT keyboard can be used, that has been cut-out to the proper
> shape to hold the C=64 board (use the top half of the C=64 housing for a
> patern)
If I was going to do that, I'de rather just use a top half of a C64 case
with the keyboard as the extention (just make a new bottom for it). But
what I *really* want is 4 cursor keys and 8 function keys (ie no
shifting)
with the remote keyboard. (any way to hack that into a C64 keyboard?)
> and bTw... the "keyboard-out" jack I have installed in my C=64 tower has
> also been used to "hard-wire" directly to a defunked combo organ
> keyboard which also used mechanical switches on its keyboard. The
Can't an old PC keyboard also be hardwired like that? I realize it
would
take some time an effort, but I think it would be worth it if there was
no better way.
Paul
-------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Albers (pa@gis.shl.com)
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order."
-- Dr. Who
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: martijnb@mud.stack.nl (Martijn van Buul)
Date: 1998/03/11
It occurred to me that Paul Albers wrote:
>
> Can't an old PC keyboard also be hardwired like that? I realize it
> would
> take some time an effort, but I think it would be worth it if there was
> no better way.
Theoretically, yes... Practically: No.
A PC-keyboard is basicly a similiar matrix which is converted to
scancodes in the actual keyboard itself. If you'd want to make a
PC-keyboard to have the same matrix as a C64-one, that would mean that
you'll have to change the PCB of the keyboard itself. (that is: make
a new one!)(which could be used on only _one_ type of keyboard. A
_slightly_ different model wouldn't work).
Making a small circuitry that emulates a C64 keyboard from the scancodes
it receives from the PC-keyboard, that'd be a far more better idea.
Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port
from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B,
depending on the keys pressed. A simple 68HC11 would do nicely. It has
enough I/O ports, enough RAM, enough EEPROM to store the needed program
in.... Easy!
(PS: I'm told that XT-keyboards have a far more easier keyboard interface,
since it's a one-way only interface (the keyboard only sends to the
computer). An AT-keyboard sends as well as receives data from the computer
(the LEDS are controlled that way). However, XT-keyboards are hard to
obtain these days...)
--
Martijn van Buul, martijnb@mud.stack.nl
Tijntje@OuterSpace - 131.155.141.166 3333
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
From: Nicolas Welte
Date: 1998/03/11
Martijn van Buul wrote:
> Making a small circuitry that emulates a C64 keyboard from the scancodes
> it receives from the PC-keyboard, that'd be a far more better idea.
Yes, I agree!
> Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port
> from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B,
> depending on the keys pressed.
But that would not be very compatible. I think there are some programs
(especially games) which use a custom keyboard code which makes some
effort to distinguish actual key presses from joystick moves. You could
also use port A as input and port B as output, which would render your
circuit inoperative.
There are much better solutions, I think they are called analog matrix
chips. They basically represent a switch matrix in a chip and are
available as 8x8 or 8x12 matrix (among others), which would fit the c64
and c128. If you combine one of these with your microcontroller, then
you have the final keyboard replacement. Of course you had to deal with
all those remapping problems, just like emulators do.
> A simple 68HC11 would do nicely. It has
> enough I/O ports, enough RAM, enough EEPROM to store the needed program
> in.... Easy!
Hmm, I couldn't do it. If it's easy for you, then please do it :-)
B
> (the LEDS are controlled that way). However, XT-keyboards are hard to
> obtain these days...)
Some older AT keyboards have an XT/AT switch.
Nicolas
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:32 +0000
From: Robert Norris
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
> Hello,
>
> Please check here for the C64 Tower and keyboard interfacing stuff:
>
> http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/cbm.html
>
> http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/c64tower/
>
> bye,
Thanks for this, I like what you've done with the AT keyboard hack,
but I want a true hardware interface and not one that needs a
software patch, that way the keyboard can be used for everything, not
just stuff where the interrupts haven't been changed, etc.
Good idea on the tower page btw
Cheers
Rob.
btw I would have posted this but the newsserver has gone funny and
insists that there is only 9 messages on comp.sys.cbm. hmm.
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:36:45 +0200 (EET)
From: Ilker Ficicilar
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
Hello Robert,
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Robert Norris wrote:
> > Please check here for the C64 Tower and keyboard interfacing stuff:
> >
> > http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/cbm.html
>
> Thanks for this, I like what you've done with the AT keyboard hack,
> but I want a true hardware interface and not one that needs a
Please check hardware and documents sections. There is a text file
named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware
solution and easier than an active interface.
I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and
the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages.
In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard.
I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it
looks like C128D keyboard. By the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to
your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification.
> software patch, that way the keyboard can be used for everything, not
> just stuff where the interrupts haven't been changed, etc.
>
It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there
won't be any incompatabilities with the new software.
anyway,
>
> Cheers
>
> Rob.
>
bye for now,
> btw I would have posted this but the newsserver has gone funny and
> insists that there is only 9 messages on comp.sys.cbm. hmm.
>
my newsserver behaves nonsense either. Thats why I use Dejanews and
Reference.com
>
see you,
Ilker Ficicilar
filker@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr
c068214@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:02:00 +0000
From: Robert Norris
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
Good afternoon.
> Please check hardware and documents sections. There is a text file
> named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware
> solution and easier than an active interface.
Well, there's a distinct possibilty that I'm completely blind, but I
can't see it anywhere. :)
> I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and
> the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages.
I still can't see the point in the AT keyboard. It's a clever idea to
use the tape port, but I would have thought that having to wedge a
driver into the OS would have made it useless for most tasks.
> In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard.
> I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it
> looks like C128D keyboard. Bye the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to
> your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification.
So it's still a 64 keyboard in a modified box? Or not? Sorry, I don't
follow (maybe I needed to read the docs :)
> It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there
> won't be any incompatabilities with the new software.
What other OS? (Sorry, but I have this wierd ability to be completely
ignorant about alot of things :)
> my newsserver behaves nonsense either. Thats why I use Dejanews and
> Reference.com
Never liked Dejanews myself, mostly because it always seemed too
slow. But that could have something to do with the connection here,
which flies some days but other days is a slow as a... a really slow
thing.
Bye!
Rob.
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:38:58 +0200 (EET)
From: Ilker Ficicilar
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
Hello Rob,
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Robert Norris wrote:
> Good afternoon.
>
Well, the Sun is just set here in Turkiye.
> > named keyb64e.txt which is what you need. It is completely hardware
> > solution and easier than an active interface.
>
> I can't see it anywhere. :)
>
I put them in c64 tower page a couple of minutes ago. Whew, I feel I'm
running on the net.
> > I have two keyboards connected to my C64 Tower. One is this hack, and
> > the other is AT-keyboard. They have both their advantages.
>
> I still can't see the point in the AT keyboard. It's a clever idea to
> use the tape port, but I would have thought that having to wedge a
> driver into the OS would have made it useless for most tasks.
>
A couple of new programs will use AT-keyboard. No Kernal patches is needed
for this programs. A few people asked me to use the AT-keyboard driver in
their codes. And, if I can find time I'll try to make GEOS compatable with
AT-Keyboards. By the way, there are autobooter cartdridges. They can be
used for initial load of the keyboard driver routine.
> > In this hack, I used my C64's case with its keyboard as a new keyboard.
> > I cut and reshaped the plastic C64 case with a saw and hacksaw. Now it
> > looks like C128D keyboard. Bye the way, you can plug a C128D keyboard to
> > your C64 Tower if you make use of this keyb64e.txt modification.
>
> So it's still a 64 keyboard in a modified box? Or not? Sorry, I don't
> follow (maybe I needed to read the docs :)
>
Yes, exactly the same. Did you ever see a C128D keyboard? C128D is C128
computer in slim case with a seperate keyboard.
> > It's better to use another OS with the Tower 64 I think. So that, there
> > won't be any incompatabilities with the new software.
>
> What other OS? (Sorry, but I have this wierd ability to be completely
> ignorant about alot of things :)
>
LUnix already supports AT-Keyboard. And, in near future LUnix will have
X-Windows like GUI. Btw, in case you don't know LUnix is a multitasking,
unix-like OS for C64 by D. Dallmann.
>
> Bye!
>
> Rob.
>
see you, I'm waiting for your post concerning any trouble with the any
information presented in C64 Tower Pages.
ps: May I ask you something? I still have troubles with my newsservers.
Would you like to announce the URL of C64 Tower page in comp.sys.cbm ?
The URL is:
http://newton.physics.metu.edu.tr/~filker/c64tower/
Now its time to take some sleep, it's 08:30 A.M. here.
bye,
Ilker Ficicilar
filker@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr
c068214@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr
---
Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
========================
From: mmontcha@orednet.org (Matthew Montchalin)
Subject: Re: C64 Tower - keyboard
Date: 11 Mar 1998 21:47:46 GMT
>> Actually, all you need is a microcontroller, reading the COLUMNS-port
>> from CIA1 port A, and writing the appropriate LINES-value to port B,
>> depending on the keys pressed.
>
>But that would not be very compatible. I think there are some programs
>(especially games) which use a custom keyboard code which makes some
And certain symbolic assemblers that distinguish between BACK ARROW M, CTRL M,
and ESC M, not just SHIFT M. And speaking of which, there are always
interesting little features like CTRL M * (holding down the CTRL key,
the M key, and the ASTERISK key). I rather fancy programs which require
you to hold the ESC and alpha keys down /simultaneously/, rather than
sequentially.
>effort to distinguish actual key presses from joystick moves. You could
>also use port A as input and port B as output, which would render your
>circuit inoperative.
Well, just about anything would be better than a PC keyboard, no doubt.
--
At enim vela pendent liminibus grammaticarum scholarum, sed non illa magis
honorem secreti quam tegimentum erroris significant. -Confessiones St. Aug.
---